A-Infos (en) Italy, Sicilie Libertaria #454 - Ferri: DEMOCRACY AND/OR ANARCHY? - On the libertarian roots of Greek democracy. (ca, de, it, pt, tr)[machine translation]

A recent book by Donatella Di Cesare, published by Einaudi with the 
title "Democracy and anarchy. Power in the polis", addresses the 
relationship between the theory and political system of democracy in 
Greece in the 5th and 4th centuries BC and anarchism. We discuss this 
with Enrico Ferri, a well-known scholar of Stirner and anarchism, but 
not a superficial expert on Greek democracy, to which he has dedicated 
several essays in various languages, not least a new and recent 
translation and edition of Pseudo Xenophon, also known as the Old 
Oligarch, published by Rubbettino. ---- D) Both in the democratic and 
anarchist fields, there are not many who have addressed the 
relationships between Greek democratic theory and anarchist thought.

R) It is a fact that anarchists have paid little attention to the 
political, cultural and ideological phenomenon represented by Athenian 
democracy. Kropotkin, for example, in the entry "Anarchism" in the 1910 
Encyclopedia Britannica, when he talks about the precursors of 
anarchism, makes a fleeting reference to Aristippus and Zeno, but does 
not mention the political philosophy of democracy and its political 
system. In the "Ethics" he cites more Greek authors, but there is no 
reference to the democratic system. Things do not change if we consider 
theorists such as Bakunin, Proudhon and Stirner, or the political debate 
within the anarchist movement, not only European, of the nineteenth or 
twentieth century.

D) Donatella Di Cesare argues that the theoretical core of ancient 
democracy and that of anarchism, starting from the critique of power, 
are the same. Is this comparison correct in your opinion?

R) Aristotle, in a passage from "Politics", which Di Cesare recalls, 
argues that democrats "would not want any government, because free men 
have no masters, but not being able to do without government, they 
choose to govern and be governed in turn". It is interesting to note 
that, according to Aristotle, in the democratic perspective every 
political government is seen as a form of despotism. At the same time, 
it is recognized that the community cannot live without being 
administered, consequently the form of government (administration) 
closest to non-government is chosen. Self-government is the negation of 
every community system founded on a hierarchical power (arché), which 
comes from above and is independent of the governed. This democratic 
government, but we could define it perfectly libertarian, consists in 
"governing and being governed in turn". This assumption is perfectly in 
line with the other democratic principle, reported by Herodotus, through 
the mouth of Megabyzus, which renders democratic freedom with the 
formula né árchein né árchestai: neither command, nor be commanded.

D) In "Democracy and Anarchy" we read that "the question[of power in 
democracy]is ontological, even before being political", as well as that 
"democracy is always incomplete", that "it lacks certain 
presuppositions", that it is always "without foundation".

R) Gorgias of Leontini, with Protagoras the greatest representative of 
Sophism, maintains that "Being is not, even if it were real it would not 
be comprehensible to man and if it became so it would not be expressible 
and communicable", according to what Sextus Empiricus reports. In short, 
he says that the question of Being, which is also the question of the 
original Foundation, is not real, in any case completely absent and 
extraneous to the existence and history of men.

D) What consequences does this approach have in the political sphere?

A) Gorgias also supports what we could call the law of opportunity, that 
a certain choice can be more or less valid depending on the 
circumstances. It is not, therefore, a matter of taking the cue from 
presumed objective and founding truths, but of evaluating and choosing 
correctly depending on the circumstances.

D) The so-called epistemological relativism?

A) Epistemological relativism generally means that we have different 
representations of the same reality, depending on the perspectives. The 
Sophistic also states that the same person, or a certain community, can 
have a different representation of reality and a different approach to 
it if their living conditions, geographical environment, climate or 
political system change. Herodotus, for example, claims that the 
Egyptians have habits and lifestyles opposite to those of the Greeks, 
but only because they live with a completely original climate and river. 
Hippocrates, in his treatise "On Airs, Waters and Places", states that 
the Greeks settled in Asia Minor (Anatolia), have different 
characteristics from the Asians of the same region, because they have 
different political institutions.

D) In "Democracy and Anarchy", it almost seems that at the basis of 
Greek democracy there is a modern anti-metaphysical assumption.

A) The Greeks from the 8th to the 6th century had colonized vast 
territories of three continents, had circumnavigated Africa, starting 
from the Red Sea; for trade they had pushed as far as Iceland and knew 
much of Asia Minor. It is enough to read the histories of Herodotus, 
Hippocrates or Xenophon's "Anabasis" to realize that they were perfectly 
aware of the difference in customs, cults, morals, family and sexual 
practices and the relationships that these had with climate, orography 
and geography. The Sophistic, to which Di Cesare does not dedicate the 
necessary attention, knew how to perfectly represent these acquisitions 
and their consequences.

D) What impact does this approach, so to speak anti-ontological, have on 
the characterization of the Athenian democratic system?

A) In democracy, to return to Di Cesare's theses, there is no universal 
and immutable truth from which to start, there is no problem of the 
foundation, of certain presuppositions. The only thing that is 
absolutely certain is that power belongs to the people, that is, to the 
community as a whole, and that the interest of the community is superior 
to that of any individual or part of the community. This second 
principle, which later became a fundamental acquisition of democracy, 
not only ancient, dates back to Solon, called upon to settle the 
conflicts between oligarchs and the people: he affirmed that the 
interests of the community, considered as a whole, went beyond those of 
the individual classes.

Q) Is this vision the basis of democratic equality?

A) Certainly: in a democracy all citizens are equal before the law, what 
was called isonomia, all have the duty to contribute to the life, needs 
and defense of the community; in democratic Athens, a people's army was 
formed for the first time. At Marathon, against the elite of the Persian 
army, ten battalions formed by citizens, not by professional soldiers, 
fought. In Athens, moreover, as Pericles recalls in his famous encomium, 
everyone has the right/duty to participate in the management of public 
affairs. Even in the Ceramicus, the cemetery of Athens, signs of 
opulence and distinction in the architecture of tombs are discouraged.

D) But democratic equality has a series of limitations, both within and 
outside the citizenry.

A) When we speak of democratic equality, we are speaking of an 
essentially political equality, not a social or economic one. What it is 
is brilliantly explained by Protagoras in the Platonic dialogue of the 
same name, with the example of the flautists. It can be simplified in 
these terms: "To define someone as a flautist, it is not necessary that 
they are a virtuoso of the instrument, they only need to know how to 
play it, even if in a basic way. In the same way, a citizen is such if 
they are able to participate in the political life of the city". This 
"basic" equality does not ignore individual merits, but rather places 
them at the center of political life. Furthermore, democratic Athens 
took a series of measures that went beyond merely political equality, 
for example a policy of controlling the price of grain, imported mainly 
from the Black Sea (Euxine Pontus) and forms of compensation to allow 
the less well-off to participate in political life, for example in the 
Courts and the Assembly. The widespread practice of drawing lots, to 
assign positions that did not require specialized skills, implies an 
egalitarian vision.

D) However, there is also the question of the servile condition of part 
of the population and the certainly subordinate condition of Athenian women.

A) It is a fact: in Athens a significant part of the population is made 
up of slaves, foreign residents (metics) who had limited political 
rights and women who could not participate in political life.

D) How can a political system founded on slavery be defined as libertarian?

A) Slavery has been a constant presence in history, up to the present 
day. Let us think, for example, of the colonial system of modern 
democracies, which was in fact a slave regime. Or to the French 
Revolution, which maintains the colonies, or to American democracy, 
where even the Presidents exploited slaves of African origin. It should 
also be remembered that some critics of democracy, such as Plato and the 
Old Oligarch, argue that in democracy women and slaves enjoy excessive 
freedom, which has no counterpart in other forms of government.

D) De Cesare speaks of "deterritorialization" and the severing of blood 
ties, operated by Athenian democracy.

A) Yes, the exact opposite of the formula "Land and Blood", so dear to 
nationalisms. With the reform of Cleisthenes, in 508 BC, the population 
was divided into 10 tribes, each located in various parts of the 
territory, in the city towards the sea and in the hinterland. The 
political bond replaces the family bond, of blood, which in turn is 
linked to a territorial location.

Q) Can you summarize for us what are for Di Cesare the most properly 
anarchic characteristics of Athenian democracy, which you share?

A) Certainly the critical vision of power, the distrust or opposition to 
any concentration of power in the hands of one or a few. The positions, 
apart from rare exceptions, are always assigned pro-tempore, generally 
not renewable. Power is also controlled during its exercise and everyone 
is called to account at the end of the mandate for how he has managed 
his office. Every citizen is urged to exercise control over the 
management of power. The main objective is to encourage citizen 
participation and the redistribution of power, as Di Cesare recalls, 
always administered "provisionally", because it does not belong to 
anyone in particular, but only to the community as a whole.

Q) Di Cesare writes that the democratic polis is not the state. Is this 
thesis correct?

A) In Athens there is no permanent political-administrative apparatus, 
there are no state officials, but citizens who perform certain functions 
pro tempore, almost always for free. The laws themselves are promulgated 
in the name of the people (and of the Council of 500), not of the city 
of Athens

Q) What are the limits of Athenian democracy that, in your opinion, Di 
Cesare did not consider?

A) The political bond, which replaces the one based on consanguinity and 
territoriality, creates a union that includes those who are part of it 
and excludes others: foreigners, non-citizens, even allies. We see it in 
the foreign policy of Athenian democracy, after the second Persian war 
and in the Peloponnesian war. The same democratic allies of the Delian 
League are considered as servants, doúloi, according to laws of power 
defined as universal and eternal. We read it in Thucydides, in the 
chronicles of the Peloponnesian War and in the famous dialogue between 
the Athenians and the inhabitants of the island of Melos.

Q) What are other differences between Greek democracy and anarchy?

A) Greek democracy is the fruit of a political process that lasted two 
centuries. It is a political system that asserts itself in a disruptive 
way starting from the reforms of Cleisthenes in 508, a historical 
reality that is constituted over time, through a series of 
transformations and reforms. Suffice it to consider that there is no 
detailed text from the fifth or fourth century BC that describes what 
democracy is, apart from the funeral encomium of Pericles. Modern 
anarchy was born as a political theory starting from Bakunin and at the 
same time as a political movement, but it never becomes the political 
theory that permanently regulates the life of an extended community. The 
theoretical element is preeminent, while in Greek democracy the 
practical one dominates.

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